Victim Abuse: The after effects of speaking out.

Your Story


Claire shares her story of adult grooming and abuse.

The Theatre of the Mind

I tried to download a dating app yesterday. It was on my phone for 30 seconds before I deleted it.

Lovebombed

Last Autumn, I met a man online who made me love him like no other. He was intellectual, academic, caring, funny, attentive and romantic. Our early conversations were so rapid fire that he was taking the words out of my mouth before they came out. We spoke for hours daily by phone.  It was breath taking. He took it slowly, gently, knew me better than I knew myself.  Now I know why. He’d researched.

Indeed, the ‘getting to know you’ period lasted so long that I eventually ‘friend zoned’ him.

That spurred him into action:  before I knew it I was meeting him at Platform 8, Waterloo Station. His face lit up when he saw me. This slightly cuddly, endearingly ordinary man captured my heart. I almost ‘loved’ him before I met him. He was my mirror, but the bit I liked, for the first time ever.

You hear about women who give everything up for someone they’ve never met. I’d never understood, regarding them as a bit silly, a bit needy. Yet here I was, one step short of it. Mr W, ex Royal Navy, academic, navigation expert, ex-pat living in Rotterdam, had turned me to jelly. We snogged goodbye like teenagers. He went off to a Naval ball at the Honourable Company of Master Mariners, and I headed home with a head full of him.

Our next date was due to be in Paris, but the weekend came and went – he had to work. He wanted to put me up in the New York Hotel in Rotterdam, close to where he lived so that we had an unpressured date. That too never materialised. To be honest, I’d assumed we’d do every other weekend there or here in the UK. It was a million miles from the practical, close-by relationship that I’d sought, but I talked myself into the benefits. For a while he was my closest friend.

He was hating his job. I was wanting him here. Our communication was so intense that I eventually told him to back off a little. He sounded hurt.

He became the centre of my life. I started leaving time free for him, just in case, taking his calls just before leaving for the gym and missing much needed classes.

Our next date was London. Unsure about taking our relationship up a gear, I booked an apartment rather than a hotel so that we had the option of separate beds. I knew I’d made a friend for life, but needn’t have worried. We laughed into bed and the world vanished. For a perfect couple of days we wrapped ourselves together, emotionally, mentally and physically engrossed in our escape from reality.

Coercion and Control

It was the first time I saw him lie, really coldly, convincingly, to his boss that he was getting a supervision for his PhD, when in fact he was tucked up with me and had given up his PhD. He won’t be the first person to bunk off work, but it struck me at the time how easily the lies tripped off his tongue.

Reality for us was harder outside the bunker. He hated his job in Rotterdam. He was getting less attentive, but that honeymoon period intensity couldn’t be expected to last. At least, that’s what I told myself as he apparently spent Christmas with his mother on a cruise in the Balkans, during which time he couldn’t be in touch. His relationship with his mother was, he claimed, complex. He was secretive about her. Apparently, a spurned ex had once turned up on her doorstep.

I gave up a business I’d been working on, a passion that had burned for years. I finally had the money to invest, but he persuaded me that it was too big a risk and we’d never get any time together.

In January, he bought me a flight to Rotterdam, and we were to have our first weekend date. All our other ‘trysts’ had been week days.  I was suspicious, about how he was making me feel, shabby, needy. I explained my feelings to him and he blamed my good friend for poisoning my mind.

Eventually he threw in the job. A leadership expert, he told me he thought the management at Simwave was shoddy. However, he was going for Chartered status at the Honourable Company of Master Mariners as a boost.

I was angrily told that I couldn’t go to the ceremony with him, that it was a silly little paper signing, and I was dispatched to Rotterdam to wait for him there. 

We’d both initially had tickets for later flights, but his job loss meant he brought them forward to give us more time together. I was now on the earlier flight, he was on a later one. I knew deep inside, despite having sent me a message from a gin bar the week before that he was warming up for my visit, that he wasn’t coming. But I had a ticket and accommodation at his expense. I’d never spent much time in Rotterdam, so went anyway. Sure enough, he didn’t turn up until the following morning. He’d “missed his flight” and apparently stayed in a very expensive hotel at the airport.

His communication started faltering. 

Eventually I called time, sure he was living with someone, especially as he had now moved back to the UK, jobless, but only ever managed passing meets. On Valentine’s Day, he came over from his mother’s in Essex with a bunch of garage flowers, but had to get to Portsmouth to catch a ship for ‘Navy Reserve’ duty that evening. The timings didn’t ring true.

Punishment

Eventually he talked me round.

It was easy. I’d been out with an ex in the gap, and it just wasn’t the same.

Mr W understood me. I accepted I was nasty and should have accepted that he had a thing about his mother. We had some bridges to build, and I was going to have to demure. Despite being unhappy at his mums, we couldn’t live together because he’d apparently married his second wife within six months. But, promisingly, he wanted me to hold off buying my little Spanish bolthole. He was going to buy it with me. We would have our little place away from the World.

Despite being conscious of some cruel things he did, I was feeling increasingly bad about myself, and spent days helping to research jobs for him, preparing presentations, to make amends.  Yet still deep inside feeling a niggle, I hired a private detective to find out what was really going on.

Eventually, two weeks of being ‘ghosted’ by him, worrying about the cancer he purported to being tested for, and having completely omitted to acknowledge my birthday despite having left it clear for a promised weekend in Paris, seven months of relationship ended with a little email about how difficult his life was and he had no more time for me. I replied that I was sorry, that whatever our relationship had diminished to, I was grateful for the good bits.

I was relieved.

The truth

It was too late to call off the investigators, they’d started work: he was living with a woman near Fareham, in a house he’d supposedly rented out. I sent him a choice text and moved on. To stop anyone else getting duped by him, I posted some of our pictures up on Facebook, a rare ‘public’ post, pointing out his marital situation and where he was living – not in the mess on a naval base or with mother.

The man had no more loved me than a politician kissing a baby. Awful truths started to crawl daily out of the woodwork. Alan Ayckbourn would be hard pushed to make up some of it, especially the Master Mariners event, where at least three women had wanted to attend. But the sadder stories were what he’d done to his family. I was just one in a string of women that he’d groomed into relationships.

I had consented to a physical relationship only after extracting an explicit promise of him being unmarried and not dating anyone else. That he had a clean bill of sexual health. He had lied to obtain that consent, was married, had multiple other partners simultaneously, and  had lied about his sexual status, putting me at risk.

My reward for loving Mr W was planned suicide (fortunately not acted on), a police harassment notice, and now a civil law suit because his wife claims to have suffered enough to need three months off work. He apparently bears no blame for this. It’s my fault for naming him.

I am no longer the person I was. He’s eaten at my self esteem. I doubt I’ll ever date again. How can I? The only person I’ve loved in over 30 years was never real, just a mind game.

Looking back through our conversations for the police and for my solicitors, he laced the clues,  lured me in to hurt me. He won the mind game.

Grooming is very different from an affair. Mr W only ever wanted me to break my own moral codes, to use his “theatre of the mind” to push my boundaries. I am shamed that he succeeded, in more ways than I’ll admit here.

But I’ll use that shame and disgust to make sure that people like him – men and women alike, are no longer allowed to hurt others legally. My explicit consent matters as much as money. More.

Too many victims end up further victimised when they speak out. He, meanwhile, and others like him, continue to re-offend with impunity.

How the hell did this happen to me? How ‘Adult Grooming’ works.

The most unexpected part of sharing your story, a story which has been soul destroying, bewildering, humiliating (these are just touching on the adjectives to describe how I felt)  is the reaction from others. Some just don’t get it.

Mixed reactions from friends, family, work colleagues, all who know you and the type of person you are. People who may or may not, have the capacity to understand that they cannot judge what they haven’t experienced first hand.

Trying to explain to them what happened when you’re not really sure yourself. Still fighting with the voices of your own judgement and trust, as the truth becomes clear, and you’re left with this crazy spinning question…How the hell did this happen to me?

It was the counsellor I was seeing, after I discovered the initial catalogue of lies, that explained to me about the behaviours of Narcissists, Sociopaths and Psychopaths. She knew quickly my personality type was to research things to understand, in order to accept. She sent me off with homework to research further these personality ‘disorders’. This was the start of my awakening. It was my saving in respect that it made clear how I ( I’m not stupid, naive or a bimbo) had fallen prey to our Catfish.

I had been groomed. It doesn’t just happen to children.

How do we know that these groomers (not those using the same behaviour through scripts for financial fraud)  are of these personality types?  Even tiny amounts of research come back with the answers:

  • these individuals feel entitled
  • they do not have conscience or empathy
  • they are incredibly convincing liars and manipulators
  • they show no normal markers for lying
  • they can cry on demand to make stories more convincing
  • they are naturally charming
  • they use mirroring to build trust
  • they need constant new supply to satisfy their addictions (online platforms make targets easily accessible)
  • they only choose targets that show qualities that they themselves lack for 2 reasons (many good, kind individuals are empathetic to others and ‘to learn responses’ from good morals, ethics and kind behaviour)

These groomers are not men/women seeking an affair from a tired relationship or marriage. There will never be ‘just one woman/man’ that they are seeking comfort or excitement from. These individuals are premeditated and meticulous in their approach. They are constantly grooming multiple targets at any one time. They need a constant new supply as at some point, they will tire of, or exhaust the relationship or the mask will have slipped and they get exposed.

Many people won’t even know they have rubbed shoulders with one. The lesson? Don’t judge the victims.

Ann Silver MA describes in this simple and succinct blog-how to spot one of these individuals.

‘How to spot a sociopathic liar’ by Ann Silvers MA

Creating elaborate lies for their own gain with no care about who gets hurt is a hallmark of sociopathic lying. Sociopaths are compulsive pathological liars.

Sociopaths lie without conscience.

That means that they can look you right in the eye and lie to you and not show the usual markers that would give them away.

It also means that they don’t care about collateral damage.

They get their mind set on a goal and they will make up whatever they need to in their attempts to achieve their goal. It doesn’t matter what the consequences are to others as a result of their lies. It doesn’t matter if other adults get hurt and it doesn’t matter if children get hurt. It doesn’t even matter if their own children get hurt.

What is a sociopath?

(Note: I see sociopath and psychopath as the same thing. So, the answer to the question, “What is a psychopath?” is the same as the answer to the question, “What is a sociopath?”)

One way to define sociopath: Sociopaths are parasites.

Like other parasitic creatures, sociopaths need a “host” for survival. They are on the lookout for strong, healthy hosts. When they find a suitable host, they latch on, and aren’t satisfied until they have sucked the life out of the person who has had the misfortune of becoming their target.

When we think of sociopathic people, we most often think of those that kill. But sociopathy can be put on a continuum from zero to Jodi Arias. On this continuum, everyone past the half-way mark is going to cause problems for people who come in contact with them. As you move along the continuum of sociopathic behavior, the perpetrators become more and more destructive.

Some sociopaths (such as Jodi Arias or Scott Peterson) physically kill their targets. Others kill their psyches, financial health, self-esteem, reputation, ability to have another relationship, or their spirits.

The diagnostic manual used by mental health professionals uses the term Antisocial Personality Disorder to designate a pattern of attitudes and behaviors we commonly call psychopathy or sociopathy.

Being without conscience and enjoying lying are two key elements of sociopathic personality. These elements go hand in hand in that sociopaths’ lack of conscience means that they can lie without showing the normal markers of lying. That’s how they pull people into believing their lies and get away with as much as they get away with. They are so practiced at lying that they respond to being caught in a lie by creating a new lie. It is very difficult to pin them down. Their lies tend to be complex and detailed.

Education is protection

According to Martha Stout, author of The Sociopath Next Door, 4% of the population is sociopathic. That is 1 in 25.

We bump up against sociopathic people in our neighborhoods, workplaces, and grocery stores. Those of us who are particularly unlucky partner with one or have one in the family.

To protect yourself and people you care about, it’s worthwhile studying these people and learning what to watch out for.

The characteristics of sociopathic lying

Some of the sociopath characteristics make it extra easy for them to get away with their lies.

Sociopathic liars:

    • lie without conscience
    • don’t show the normal markers of lying
    • don’t care about collateral damage
    • are very practiced manipulators
    • make up new lies as cover stories if old lies are exposed

Sociopaths can:

    • be very charming
    • bring up crocodile tears (fake tears they can conjure up at opportune times)
    • extract people’s sympathy
    • use detail in their lies to be convincing

Why do they do it?

People so often grapple with “Why?” Why do they do it? Why would anyone make up such a lie?”

When they can’t see a good “why” answer, they often conclude “It makes no sense for them to lie about this, therefore it must be true.”

I’ll tell you why. It’s a simple answer really.

Sociopaths lie because they perceive some gain from the lie.

The gain to the liar may be:

    • control,
    • power,
    • prestige,
    • glory,
    • money,
    • winning an argument,
    • punishing someone they see as an adversary,
    • getting someone out of their way,
    • undermining the credibility of someone who could expose their lies,
    • notoriety,
    • an ego boost,
    • demeaning or humiliating others,
    • an opportunity to practice their lying skills,
    • enjoyment from pulling the wool over people’s eyes,
    • sympathy,
    • protecting their previous lies,
    • creating an illusion of who they are, or
    • getting something they want.

Remember, sociopathic liars don’t have a pesky conscience to hold them back and they don’t care about collateral damage. All they care about is their self-centered gain.

Sociopaths abuse their romantic partners.

Not all abusive people are sociopaths, but all sociopaths are abusive.

Read here about Love Bombing Part 1

Read here about Love Bombing Part 2

 

Adult Grooming: Grooming does not just happen to children.

Adult Grooming is the behaviour behind ‘Catfishing’. Under current legislation you lose your right to any protection as you turn 16. Here ‘mumstravelblog’ describes her experience of this abhorrent abuse.

Long Term Damage from Adult Grooming

I have spent years talking to my children (my daughter in particular) about safety online and more specifically in relation to the dangers of online dating after she split up with her first long term boyfriend and ventured over into the world of ‘Tinder’.

But to be honest I truly thought that I myself was immune from online scammers and predators, I ‘thought’ I could spot them from a mile away….. I WAS WRONG.

I have dipped my toe into the world of online dating a few times on and off over the years, and yes I have on occasions met up with guys who have looked 10 yrs older than their profile photos or have posted on their profiles that they are 6′ and turn out to actually be 5’4″ !! It kind of goes with the territory, but never in a million years did I think that at the age of 47 that I would get groomed, deceived and duped in the way that I did.

The word ‘catfish’ is used more and more in relation to online dating and those who set up fake profiles in order to scam people either for money or for some twisted pleasure.

My groomer was not a ‘catfish’ in the traditional sense; he used his own name (I think) and his own photographs, however that is the only thing about him which was either truthful or real. Absolutely everything else which came from him was lies and was all a part of a very sick controlling game he played which enabled him abuse my sanity, my integrity, my mind, my self worth, my trust, and my body.

I have already named the man who groomed me in my earlier blog – Steve Window, I am 99.9% sure than this is his real name, however when I was getting suspicious about him and put his mobile number into Facebook it connected to a profile in the name of ‘David Peters’ but with no photograph, I suspect that he may have been using additional profiles under that name and maybe others as well, I will never know the truth. The worse part of it was the fact that Steve joked constantly about online scammers and how stupid women were to fall for them, he said “if you can see someone has a linkedin account then you know 100% that they are genuine…” of course he has a linkedin account, but he is far from genuine – he is a narcissistic serial predator and compulsive liar.

In a very short space of time this one man single handedly stripped away my sense of self, he stripped away my integrity and my right to consent – I honestly feel that his deception and coercion took away my rights and my freedom to choose (because I know 100% I would NOT have chosen to have any kind of relationship with him had he rightfully informed me of the truth).

Now without blowing my own trumpet I am a pretty intelligent, grounded, strong and sensible woman! As well as being a former Police Officer. It’s not very often that someone like this would get one over on me, neither would I ever have previously considered myself vulnerable, however this experience has shown me just how vulnerable I actually am and this alone has weakened me greatly as a person. I am empathic, sensitive to other people’s needs, I love deeply and am fiercely protective. I had always prided myself on my honesty, integrity, loyalty, inner strength and fairness towards others.

Previous to this abuse I trusted pretty much everyone at face value until such time as they gave me reason not to, now I trust no one and I honestly feel like I will never be able to trust anyone again, particularly within a relationship.

This is not a man who just dated me with good intentions and it simply didn’t work out – this is a man who deliberately targeted me, meticulously groomed me (at the same time as others) and deceived me into having sex with him, then gained additional gratification in completely messing with my mind & my emotions to devalue me. Internally I am still screaming, but no one can hear me. However know I have to be strong for the sake of my children…and I will be.

The thing is with him is that he is clever; a brilliant academic who has a Masters Degree in studying manifesting & human behaviour within the Maritime domain. He understands psychology in depth and the power of the mind, he knows how to change peoples perceptions in the way that they think and act, he knows exactly the way the mind can be re-programmed quickly. He uses these skills in his coercive control of women and I have to say he uses them well.

I look back now and I cringe, how on earth did I fall for that?…but I did – hook, line and sinker 😢. I have used online dating in the past as I’ve already said, but I have never got into deeply personal conversation prior to meeting a man, and certainly didn’t think it remotely possible that you could fall in love with someone before even meeting them, but with him I did, and I fell quickly. He made sure of that. However what I have subsequently learnt is that the messages that Steve was sending me were not love, but what is referenced as ‘love bombing’ a well known and documented tactical move of narcissists to quickly gain control over you and your emotions.

I honestly had never had such feelings for someone I had never met before, I couldn’t believe that this was happening or even possible – finally I believed I had met the man of my dreams and what’s more I foolishly believed that he felt the same way too. When we sat in a restaurant together enjoying a lavish dinner during our first date, he looked he straight in the eye telling me he had absolutely no doubts that this was all perfect and I totally felt the same way. Little did I know as we sat in the Citizen M Hotel, Rotterdam later that evening, chatting, laughing and being what some would describe as ‘loved up’, Steve was sending photos of his G&T to his next victim with a text saying “warming up for your visit”. Just two weeks later he took her to exactly the same hotel!

I am very much one for taking things slowly and if things don’t feel quite right from either side, one half will finish it – end of story and no harm done.

Part of my abusers mind games was the constant reassurance that the relationship was still perfect and that he was smitten, even though in practice he seemed to be withdrawing from me. His words and actions didn’t mirror one another, if he wanted to end it then he could have done so very easily and that would have been the end of it.(I even gave him the chance to do exactly that…twice). No, that was far too boring for him, the ‘carrot & donkey’ scenario was all part of the coercion & mental control. Just in me having to question ‘are things still OK between us?’ made me also question myself as to whether I was appearing too needy? (Definitely not my usual style, yet something which he clearly thrived on as he would have gained a sense of power over me.

My full story is told in an earlier blog, so I am not going to go over it again, but in just a very very short period of time Steve had totally manipulated my mind, and after he had deliberately strung me along for several more weeks and then ghosted me it triggered all sorts of emotions within. Initially when he vanished after saying he was going on a business trip to Singapore I was worried sick that something bad had happened to him, then came a sense of confusion and non belief; this man who had claimed to have such strong feelings for me, made promises and plans for both our short and long term future together. I felt SO stupid realising that I had been set up in such a way and had blindly walked straight into his trap. I had told my parents all about him over Christmas, told friends I had finally found ‘the one’, booked tickets for him to attend a big awards ceremony with me for which I was a judge and had told several colleagues about the ‘new man’ I was bringing with me. I suddenly could not even face going, my stomach was in knots, I felt physically sick as the reality dawned on me that I had been deliberately targeted, groomed, used and ghosted – as suddenly everything fell into place.

His coercive control left me with debilitating anxiety attacks and suicidal thoughts, don’t ask me why, the mind can do funny things. I wasn’t just devastated that a short term relationship had come to an end, it was the reality of being groomed and abused in so many senses. Feeling totally violated & vulnerable, realising I could have potentially put my children at risk, not only of the possibility of either being groomed themselves, but of them becoming motherless if he had infected me with H.I.V (something which I don’t mind admitting I am paranoid about given the fact my brother died of AIDS at 37 and why I am generally over cautious about safe sex) My abuser assured me that sex with him was safe, he told me he was single and not been in another relationship for over a year – and I foolishly believed him.

If you have never suffered with anxiety/panic attacks then this diagram might just come close to trying to describe them: The invisible hippopotamus sitting on your chest was particularly poignant for me, and even now when it hits me, I feel like I can’t breathe.

My life hasn’t always been easy, I was in an physically abusive relationship 21 years ago, and two years ago I had a bad breakdown. I had worked hard at re-building my life TWICE, Steve knew the details of both these low points in my life because I had trusted him enough to share. He knew that I was perhaps ‘fragile’ and yet it did not deter his path of abuse and destruction, in fact looking back he used this to control my emotions even more. He knew that in me learning to love and learning to trust again were big steps, he reassured me that I would be ‘loved, cherished and protected, and that he would never lie to me’. Two years ago I had been on the brink of taking my own life (not relationship related, just one of many many straws breaking the camels back). Forming such a strong bond so quickly with Steve was a huge step in the path of that recovery….but with his deception and grooming now exposed, the walls around me came tumbling down, each and every pore seem to open an old or new wound, and emotionally I crashed. I’m not afraid to say “I was a mess”

One mans grooming triggered so much pain that I cannot even begin to write it in a blog; new hurts & past hurts, I had to re live past trauma and grieve my brothers death all over again…..all of that and so much more.

Thankfully I recognised the signs of where I was this time, I wasn’t going to put myself or my children back to where I was two years ago and hence I immediately sort the help I needed to deal with & recover from falling victim of an online predator (the emotional and physical side of the abuse)

I HATE taking any kind of medication and pills, always have. I wasn’t going to start pumping my body full of anti-depressants and suffering with god knows what side effects as well, but the fog which fell around me was debilitating for several weeks along with the anxiety and panic attacks, inside I was screaming as I felt so humiliated and disgusted with myself that I just wanted to hide from the world. I couldn’t do justice to my work, my family, to life in general. I just wanted to hide from everyone and everything..and for a while I did.

I consider myself lucky, I have the most amazingly supportive family (including my ex-husband!!!) and some truly incredible friends. With their help, with determination & will power and with some exceptional counselling, I pulled myself out of that dark hole.

I loathe the fact he still takes up so much time in my head space though, if I could just press a button and delete it all from my mind I would, if I could turn off the anxiety and sense of worthlessness I now have I would.

Life is very different now, it’s hard to describe; almost as if the rawness of the wound has healed but knowing the scars will always be there. Discovering 5 months after my own ordeal that my abuser was also married at the time and had another victim he went on to abuse immediately afterwards only re-opened some of those wounds yet again. However it also made me determined to ensure that no one else falls victim. My abuser has twice tried to threaten and intimidate me with criminal and civil action for exposing him, his own lawyers comments so dangerous and inappropriate that I reported him to the legal ombudsman, as well as bringing them to the attention of the Police & Crime Commissioner and Victim Commissioner. His lawyers despicable and highly irresponsible comments cast a shadow over himself, his company and the entire legal profession which he represents. It’s truly no wonder with people like that in the legal world that so many victims are too terrified to report abuse to the police and hence too many offences still go unreported, leaving predators completely free to re-offend over and over again.

Am I scared of my abusers intimidation & threats? NO

Am I scared that he will do this again to other women? YES …….(in fact since writing my first blog I have already been informed that he has moved on to yet another woman – this time it’s Jayne in London, who also has an 11 year old son. I’m still trying to work out why he ALWAYS goes for women with young boys??!)

I can’t change what happened to me, but I can hopefully help prevent it happening to other people, so if I go down then I will sure as hell go down fighting. Fighting for justice, fighting for the protection of other women and for the next generation (his children & mine) and fighting for what I know to my core is right.

This experience has changed me. For better or for worse?, I am yet to see long term. I would have hoped to have healed by now…I haven’t 😢. The longer the pain goes on for the deeper I understand how emotionally damaged I was by this man.

Any trust I have within me has been destroyed, BUT… that has taught me to fully embrace myself as a single woman.

It has brought a greater awareness within me that it’s not just children, the naive or vulnerable people that this happens to, it’s anyone. And it’s made me want to fight for the protection and justice of others. If I can prevent just one person from going through what I have by sharing my story then I know something positive has come from this and that it was the right thing to do, no matter how painful.

I no longer felt I could face the world in the public capacity that my job required, I could have just given up and claimed benefits…I didn’t. Instead I decided to take a year out to fully heal and look after myself for a while. I took my son out of school for a year so we could travel the world and spend some quality family together. This trip would never have come to fruition if it wasn’t for my experience of grooming. I am still overly cautious wherever I am, my normally chatty & open self is not interested in engaging strangers and fellow travellers in conversation as I normally would, but I am still working on myself and still healing. I am hoping that given time my barriers may come down again and I may be able to fully embrace the world as we travel it.

For now though, I am cocooned in love and support from family & friends near and far and for that alone I am still truly blessed.

Go to the blog here